Benutzer Diskussion:Ish ishwar~dewiki

better to leave a note at en:Ish_ishwar (talk)

Willkommen!

Ha ha! I don't know why, but that dry-as-dust statement on your userpage ('Ich spreche kein Deutsch') made me laugh out loud. Willkommen auf die freie Enzykopädie! Friede und klare Einsichte. — mark ✎ 18:01, 21. Jun 2005 (CEST)

hallo. nice to see you here, too. i suppose i am too boring. peace Ish ishwar 18:28, 21. Jun 2005 (CEST)

epiglottal plosive

hi ishwar, you made a change in Internationales Phonetisches Alphabet. can you tell me the source for the information that the epiglottal plosive is voiceless? --joni Δ 14:42, 25. Jul 2005 (CEST)

Hallo.

As far as I know there is never been a reported case of a voiced epiglottal plosive. An example that I have found just now is typical:

• Maddieson, Ian; & Wright, Richard. (1995). The vowels and consonants of Amis: A preliminary phonetic report. In I. Maddieson (Ed.), UCLA working papers in phonetics: Fieldwork studies of targeted languages III (No. 91, pp. 45-66). Los Angeles: The UCLA Phonetics Laboratory Group.

See pages 48-55 for the spectrogram evidence.

On this particular language, I have also found another paper with video files that show pictures of the epiglottal closure (just for fun!). (it turns out that the epiglottal stop has an epiglotto-pharnyngeal stop allophone!)

• http://ling.uta.edu/~jerry/amisf.pdf - Paper on the articulation, with photos (pdf)
• http://ling.uta.edu/~jerry/movies.htm - Video clips

I will also check this reference a little later & give you a quote (assuming they have something to say):

• Ladefoged, Peter; & Maddieson, Ian. (1996). The sounds of the world's languages. Oxford: Blackwell Publishers.

the question of whether a voiced epiglottal stop is possible is interesting. it would seem (to me) that the cavity between the vocal folds and the epiglottal closure would be too small to maintain vocal fold vibration for any significant length of time, i.e. i doubt that it is possible.

but at any rate, the prototypical epiglottal stop is definitely voiceless.

peace – ishwar  (diskussion) (en:Ish_ishwar) 18:24, 25. Jul 2005 (CEST)

thank you. --joni Δ 22:38, 25. Jul 2005 (CEST)

from L & M (1996)

ok. here is the promised quote:

„Pharyngeal and epiglottal sounds are made in the Radical region, below the uvula.... Meanwhile we will note that there is a justification for distinguishing between pharyngeal and epiglottal fricatives, as they contrast in the Burkikhan dialect of Agul. Examples are listed in table 2.9.

„As is evident from table 2.9, stops also occur in the epiglottal region. Catford (1983) has suggested that the Chechen 'pharyngeal stop' may be produced by "the epiglotto-arytenoidal constriction, or closure." We will regard this sound as an epiglottal stop, for which the IPA symbol is ʡ. Epiglottal stops have also been observed by Laufer and Condax (1981), who point out that they occur as allophones of so-called pharyngeal fricatives in Semitic languages. We have also observed epiglottal stops in the Cushitic language Dahalo (Maddieson, Spajić, Sands and Ladefoged 1993). Spectrograms of single and medial geminate ʡ are shown Figure 2.18. Note that this segment usually involves less than a complete closure when it is single and intervocalic, but the geminate involves a full closure. The IPA does not provide distinct symbols for voiced and voiceless epiglottal stops, having accepted the argument that the cavity between the glottis and the epiglottis is too small to permit voicing. We do not know of any language which makes such a distinction, but there are good reasons to consider the epiglottal stop in Dahalo to be phonologically voiced, for example, other single voiced stops also tend to undergo lenition when they are intervocalic.‟ Ladefoged & Maddieson (1996:37-38

ok. that's it. here is table 2.9:

Table2.9 Words illustrating contrasting pharyngeal and epiglottal fricatives, and epiglottal plosives, in the Burkikhan dialect of Agul (data from S. Kodzasov, personal communication)

VOICED PHARYNGEAL FRICATIVE	[muʕ]	'bridge'	[muʕar]	'bridges'
VOICELESS PHARYNGEAL FRICATIVE	[muħ]	'barn'	[muħar]	'barns'
VOICELESS EPIGLOTTAL FRICATIVE	[mɛʜ]	'whey'	[mɛʜɛr]	'wheys'
VOICELESS EPIGLOTTAL STOP	[jaʡ]	'center'	[jaʡar]	'centers'
	[sɛʡ]	'measure'	[sɛʡɛr]	'measures'

and are the two words in the spectrogram in Figure 2.18:

• [ṉḏoːʡo] - ‚floor‛
• [p’úʡʡu] - ‚pierce‛

so it seems that L & M are both open to the possibility that there may be voiced epiglottal stops, but none so far. if found the IPA would have to indicate them diacritics, I suppose. but even if phonetically voiceless, they may phonologically voiced (just like Deutsch & English stops).

please enjoy! – ishwar  (diskussion) (en:Ish_ishwar) 00:10, 26. Jul 2005 (CEST)

• Catford, J. C. (1983). Pharyngeal and larnygeal sounds in Caucasian languages. In D. M. Bless & J. H. Abbs (Eds.), Vocal fold physiology: Contemporary research and clinical issues (pp. 344-350). San Diego: College Hill Press.
• Laufer, Asher; & Condax, Iovanna D. (1979). The epiglottis as an articulator. Journal of the International Phonetic Association, 9, 50-56.
• Laufer, Asher; & Condax, Iovanna D. (1981). The function of the epiglottis speech. Language and Speech, 24, 39-61.
• Maddieson, Ian; Spajič, Siniša; Sands, Bonny; & Ladefoged, Peter. (1993). The phonetic structures of Dahalo. Afrikanistische Arbeitspapiere, 36, 5-53.

re: phonology & phonetics

Walker & Pullum (1999:764):

„The proposals of several analysts amount to postulated licit phonological feature combinations that describe phonetically impossible segments. Ladefoged and Maddieson (1996:37-38) for example, give grounds for analyzing Dahalo (Cushitic) as having underlying voiceless and voiced epiglottal plosives, despite the phonetic fact that there is not enough expandable surface area to the vocal tract below an epiglottal closure to permit the tranglottal airflow to initiate voicing (see Laufer 1991, Ohala 1983)....‟

• Laufer, Asher. (1991). Does the 'voiced epiglottal plosive' exist? Journal of the International Phonetic Association, 21, 44-45.
• Ohala, John J. (1983). The origin of sound patterns in vocal tract constraints. In P. F. MacNeilage (Ed.), The production of speech (pp. 189-216). New York: Springer-Verlag.
• Walker, Rachel; & Pullum, Geoffrey K. (1999). Short report: Possible and impossible segments. Language, 75 (4), 764-780.

languages

you wrote on you user page that you can speak some languages. you can indicate it a better way if you use the babel-system. i don't know your level for this languages, but this contains your known languages, so that you only have to change the number:

--joni Δ 14:42, 25. Jul 2005 (CEST)

ok. thank you. i will figure out how to use these. – ishwar  (diskussion) (en:Ish_ishwar) 18:25, 25. Jul 2005 (CEST)

and by the way: "(en:Ish_ishwar)" is in wiki code ([[:en:User:Ish ishwar|en:Ish_ishwar]]) and looks like this: (en:Ish_ishwar)

--joni Δ 22:51, 25. Jul 2005 (CEST)

ok. thank you for the information.

testing... yes, it works. danke. – ishwar  (diskussion) (en:Ish_ishwar) 00:08, 26. Jul 2005 (CEST)

Indigene amerikanische Sprachen

Hi Ish_ishwar, I tried to complete the table, but that's quite hard. The real good literature is in english and there are different translations to german. So, I'm not sure, if this is right. I'll consult some more literature and will do corrections if needed. --Napa 16:00, 19. Aug 2005 (CEST)

Danke for your time. I will make the map according to your names, except for Penutian which I think should be different so that Plateau Penutian and Penutian are not confused. If it needs corrections, we can adjust it (you or me or anyone else). I used the free program, The Gimp. I guess I will upload a copy of the file in the original Gimp format sometime soon.

I list below my comments on your addition/corrections and my original thoughts in choosing names (which may or may not be helpful to you).

• Chimakuan = Chemakum + Quileute. Chimakuan is used so that Chemakum and Chimakuan are not confused. Chemakum is also spelled as Chimakum.
• Coosan includes 2 languages: Hanis and Miluk. Coos-Takelman seems to suggest Coosan + Takelma + Kalapuyan. I dont know of any proposal exactly like this. But, this is similar to Edward Sapir's proposal Oregon Penutian which is Takelma + Coast Oregon Penutian + Kalapuya (where Coast Oregon Penutian = Coosan + Siuslaw + Alsean). I intend here to only include Hanis and Miluk because is uncontroversial. Oregon Penutian is very likely, but from my knowledge it is not fully demonstrated. (by the way, I am not a Penutian scholar, so I dont know the most current opinions.)
• Plateau Penutian is a subgrouping of the classic Penutian. The older name is Shahapwailutan (a French speaker used this term for the French version of the map). Plateau Penutian = Sahaptian + Klamath-Modoc + Molala. Sometimes Cayuse is included, but this language does not have enough data to determine its relationship. Plateau Penutian is not fully demonstrated, but many consider it to be very probable.
• I used Siouan-Catawban like other authors & mapmakers so that it will be clear that Siouan and Catawban languages are included and that these are 2 different branches. (others use the term Catawba-Siouan.) However, some just call this family Siouan and the lower tree branch is called Core Siouan (or something similar). (Catawban consists of 2 languages: Catawba + Woccon.)
• Takelman = Takelma + Kalapuyan, but not Oregon Penutian. Takelman is also controversial and not fully demonstrated, but it may be more likely than Oregon Penutian. (we must wait for future reports from the researchers.)
• Utian = Miwokan + Costanoan. The name comes from linguist Catherine Callaghan who proved this relationship (because „Penutian‟ is „pen‟+„uti‟). The older term is Mutsun. Utian was a part of Dixon & Kroeber's original Penutial hypothesis, but it is not equivalent to Penutian. (classic Penutian = Miwokan + Costanoan + Maiduan + Wintuan + Yokutsan.) I started to write a history of this in the English Wikipedia article (but it is still not finished, especially the more recent research).
• Yukian is also called Wappo-Yukian. Maybe this is better for the map so that no one will be confused that it also includes Wappo?
• I am not sure what you mean by the Salish comment under Salinan. Salinan is an extinct language of California (with at least 2 dialects). Originally, Dixon & Kroeber included Salinan and Chumash in a Iskoman grouping. This grouping was based on only 12 words (!). Then Iskoman was included under Hokan. Salinan may be Hokan, but it is probably not related to Chumash. Salishan languages are very different and are in British Columbia, Washington, Idaho, Montana, and Oregon.

I just didn't fount anything about Salinan, so I was not sure, whether it is a typo or not. --Napa 22:18, 19. Aug 2005 (CEST)

Ok. Names are very confusing. There are too many different names for the same people and language. I am trying learn about South America, but the different names give me problems. – ishwar  (diskussion) (en:Ish_ishwar) 01:02, 20. Aug 2005 (CEST)

Danke again. peace – ishwar  (diskussion) (en:Ish_ishwar) 20:36, 19. Aug 2005 (CEST)

I finished the map.

.

I called it "Langs_N.Amer_Deutsch". Would it be better to be something like "Nordamerikanischen Sprachen"?

No, that's ok.

I left the last color box (white) without a label. In English I labeled it "uninhabited, unknown, or out of area". Can you provide an appropriate label in Deutsch?

Maybe: "Unbewohnte Gebiete oder unbekannte Sprachen"

If you disagree with the names or if there is some problem, you can tell me to change it.

Anyway, this is just the beginning. I am still not finished with all of the language boundaries yet, but at least readers do not have to read English anymore.

peace – ishwar  (diskussion) (en:Ish_ishwar) 01:02, 20. Aug 2005 (CEST)

Irokesisch in Irokesische Sprachen is a adjective and doesn't need a hyphen, but Salish in Salish-Sprachen is a noun and needs a hyphen in combination with an other noun (Sprachen). But I can't tell you, why sometimes a adjective is common and sometimes a noun. Thanks for your great job with the maps! --Napa 10:25, 28. Aug 2005 (CEST)

Hallo. Danke for the translation (above): I will update the map.

Hmm, I guess that I will not predict any names... I am happy that you enjoy the maps. I wish they could be better, but unfortunately I am not an artist. peace – ishwar  (diskussion) (en:Ish_ishwar) 20:44, 29. Aug 2005 (CEST)

why become a user

If you say you don't understand German language, why become a user on a German website? --69.67.230.168 05:56, 18. Sep 2006 (CEST)

why not? – ishwar  (diskussion) (en:ish_ishwar) 18:43, 24. Sep 2006 (CEST)

Dein Konto wird umbenannt

Hallo!

Das Entwicklungsteam der Wikimedia Foundation führt einige Änderungen durch, die die Funktionsweise von Benutzerkonten betreffen. Dies geschieht als Teil unserer kontinuierlichen Bemühungen, neue und bessere Werkzeuge (wie Wiki-übergreifende Benachrichtigungen) für unsere Benutzer anbieten zu können. Diese Änderungen bedingen, dass du überall denselben Benutzernamen hast. Dadurch können wir dir neue Funktionen zur Verfügung stellen, die das Bearbeiten und Diskutieren erleichtern und flexiblere Benutzerrechte für Tools ermöglichen. Eine Bedingung dafür ist, dass Benutzerkonten nun über alle 900 Wikimedia-Wikis hinweg eindeutig sein müssen. Weitere Informationen findest du in dieser Ankündigung.

Leider benutzt auch eine andere Person denselben Benutzernamen Ish ishwar wie du. Um sicherzustellen, dass ihr beide weiterhin auf allen Wikimedia-Projekten arbeiten könnt, haben wir für dich das global eindeutige Benutzerkonto Ish ishwar~dewiki reserviert, das nur dir gehört. Sollte dir dieser Name gefallen, musst du keine weitere Änderung durchführen. Wenn du jedoch einen anderen Benutzernamen wünschst, kannst du auf dieser Seite einen neuen Namen wählen. Wenn du denkst, dass du bereits alle Benutzerkonten mit diesem Namen besitzt und diese Nachricht fälschlicherweise erhalten hast, besuche bitte die Seite Spezial:Benutzerkonten_zusammenführen, um den Sachverhalt zu prüfen und alle deine Benutzerkonten miteinander zu verbinden, damit eine Umbennung verhindert wird.

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Viele Grüße,
Keegan Peterzell
Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation

21:55, 19. Mär. 2015 (CET)

Umbenannt

w

Dieses Benutzerkonto wurde im Rahmen der Single-User Login Finalisation umbenannt. Wenn du im Besitz dieses Kontos bist, kannst du dich mit deinem alten Benutzernamen und Passwort anmelden, um mehr Informationen zu erhalten. Solltest du mit deinem neuen Benutzernamen nicht einverstanden sein, kannst du dir nach dem Anmelden einen neuen aussuchen, hier: Spezial:Globale Umbenennungsanfrage. -- Keegan (WMF) (Diskussion)

10:29, 22. Apr. 2015 (CEST)