Diskussion:All Fours

Guter Artikel aber teilweise irreführend

Der Artikel ist meistens gut aber teilweise irreführend. All Fours ist ein sehr altes englisches Kartenspiel, das weit verbreitet wurde. Es wird heute noch in England gespielt und in vielen aktuellen Kartenspielbücher beschrieben. Der Artikel läßt man aber darauf schließen, dass es aus grundsätzlich aus Trinidad und Tobago kommt, auch die Regeln hier entsprechen nur die trinidadischen und nicht die klassischen oder modernen englischen Regeln. Bezüglich der Kartenspielgruppe laut Parlett gehört dieses Spiel dem High-Low-Jack-Gruppe. Das ist zwar nicht falsch aber McLeod hat diese Gruppe nach dem Stammvater die "All-Fours-Gruppe" besser genannt.

Mein Vorschlag ist, dass der Schwerpunkt des Artikels das klassische und moderne englische Spiel sein soll. Die trinidadische Variante soll natürlich beschrieben werden aber as einer der Varianten. MfG. --Bermicourt (Diskussion) 15:32, 31. Aug. 2020 (CEST)

Hi Bermicourt,

we can discuss this in English if you're more comfortable with it, or keep it in German if you enjoy the practicing aspect. ;-)

The article has a history paragraph that depicts the roots of the game. Probably it could need some spading, but I found sources on the history of card games to be sparse. Maybe I didn't look in the right places. As for today, if the game's still popular in England that should be depicted properly, but I did not find sources that support that. Same applies to divergent rules - if the game has a significance somewhere and the rules differ, that needs to go into the article. It is safe to say though that the game's centre is Trinidad now. My impression was that in areas where it once was significant it nowadays carves out an existence of a niche game.

Kind regards, Grueslayer 16:00, 31. Aug. 2020 (CEST)

I’ll switch to English – I know my limitations! The history of All Fours is well introduced by David Parlett in his Oxford History of Card Games and summarised in his Penguin Book of Card Games. It is further developed by my friend and fellow researcher, John McLeod, and by John Williamson in various editions of The Playing-Card, although gaps in our knowledge remain. From those and other sources we hear that All Fours is “thriving” in Lancashire and West Yorkshire and that the present-day centres of All Fours are therefore northern England, as well as Trinidad and North America. The articles present an interesting picture of all the descendants of All Fours that even include Pidro (sic) played in a region of Finland, although games of the All Fours family have otherwise barely penetrated Europe.

My sense is therefore that an article entitled All Fours is a notable topic and should cover the history and development of the game with a strong emphasis on classical All Fours - historical and modern - a game that is still widely published so presumably still played. It could then go on to describe its 3 main modern versions – Lancashire, Yorkshire and Trinidad All Fours – as well as summarising its descendants. Of the latter, at least one, North American Pitch, probably merits a separate article, as on English Wiki. John McLeod has stand-alone articles for a number of the others including Phat and Don, popular in Wales and Ireland.

The Trinidad variant certainly has the most obvious online presence, but that may be because it’s casino-sponsored hence there may be a profit-motive. That doesn’t necessarily make it the most played – actual player numbers are always hard to estimate. Interestingly the populations of Lancashire and West Yorkshire both exceed that of Trinidad. But this isn’t a competition – all three modern versions can be covered in equal measure. I’ve started to do this on English Wiki, but there is a bit to do as I want to check out my historical sources. HTH. --Bermicourt (Diskussion) 11:04, 1. Sep. 2020 (CEST)

I have zero knowledge of card games (and dislike All Fours btw., just played it for one evening to learn the rules and get the vibes), and I only have the Penguin Book of Card Games at hand (and The Compleat Gamester). What I do know is how to write articles, how to distill sources, and all things Trinidad. From that background, two remarks:

• Parlett does not mention All Fours still being popular anywhere, but says, "The modern British descendant of All Fours is an equally lively folk-game called Don".

• Original research: It's not called the "national card game" for nothing in Trinidad. It's being played by pretty much everyone, across ages, genders, and social classes. But as you said, sources are sparse.

On a side note, your German... shows potential for improvement. I might need to make some amendments to your last change. Kind regards, Grueslayer 18:10, 1. Sep. 2020 (CEST)

I'm a card game researcher and write articles for The Playing-Card, so I have access to expert contacts and dozens of sources. I agree, All Fours is a rather jejune, gambling game; even Bavarian Ramsen is more fun, and Sixty-Six, Watten and Schafkopf are far more interesting and challenging. But since your German is clearly way ahead of mine and you're confident you can master this subject with just two sources, I'll bow out and let you crack on. Gruß. --Bermicourt (Diskussion) 21:58, 1. Sep. 2020 (CEST)

Trotz dem obige Diskussion ist der Artikel noch nicht verbessert. Daher bleibe ich bei meinem Vorschlag: der Schwerpunkt soll das klassische und moderne englische Spiel sein. Die trinidadische Variante ist nur einer der moderne Varianten. S. en.wiki. --Bermicourt (Diskussion) 09:17, 4. Okt. 2021 (CEST)